tv On the Record With Greta Van Susteren FOX News November 25, 2014 11:00pm-12:01am PST
just sad thank you both. thank you. thank you for watching as always, "fox and first" first. raid.s for joining us. happy thanksgiving. >> breaking news tonight. protests across the nation. protesters angry about the ferguson grand jury decision not to diet officer darren wilson. right now you are looking live at fergusonson, missouri, quiet there right now. the community is consumed with fear and uncertainty as to whether there will be another night of violence. missouri's governor vowing that tonight will not be a repeat of last night. is that only hope? can a governor really stop this violence? trord is going to take you live to the streets plus, for the first time you will hear directly from officer darren wilson. >> at that time i gave myself another can i shoot this guy?
just seconds after the prosecutor announce nod indictment. riots breaking out, protesters setting fires, looting stores, turning cars upside down. smashing glass and blocking roads. and much more. meanwhile, police in armored vehicles firing back with tear gas. so, tonight, missouri's governor nixon ordering hundreds more national guardsmen to the streets of ferguson. we are getting new information about the evidence to that grand jury. you are about to hear from our team of legal and forensic experts but we start with griff jenkins live on the ground in ferguson griff? >> hi, greta. that's right. things have changed and can you see it right over my shoulder. that is the national guard taking a full force position here at the police department in ferguson again 61 arrests, 21 fires. at least one person investigated as a homicide. it was chaos here. there were were bullets being fired hour by hour.
the fires just up and down this street it was something i have never seen in the streets of america. take a look. >> shouting. >> it was the night parts of ferguson missouri burned to the ground. arson, gunshots, looting. all and all out chaos in the middle of america. and "on the record" for it all. >> out of my face now. go. "shoe," "shoe," shoo. >> for hours. >> the city of ferguson has absolutely gone to shambles. >> shocking pictures making this missouri town look like a war zone. tear gas, gunshots, molotov cocktails sending shock waives throughout the community. live fox news coverage catching some of the most chaotic coverage. >> by the way early we reported one of our reporters said it was tear gas but it was one.
>> here we go. and now the ferguson meat market and liquor being hit. >> one fox news reporter attacked during a live report. >> what about all the people that have these masks on like that guy. how many people are covering themselves. >> the only casualty was the camera. right now i have two iphones working to show you a beauty supply shop which has just been set on fire. >> it was a night of total anarchy. >> that's real gunfire. >> greta, as we are here thcialtion is where it all began last night. we heard the announcement and chaos ensued. only one protester standing in front of the national guard. the crowds are not swelling. however as police and authorities said in a press conference. they are worried that the law of averages will catch up to them. they cannot keep sustaining without terrible things like loss of life. we will hope it's a calmer night here in ferguson with the national guard it's going to be a different scene.
greta? >> are people saying anything to you on the street, griff, to indicate that they are looking for calm tonight or do you get sort of the sense that things are going to rev up soon? >> that's a great question, greta. let me tell you what people here are saying and they are all saying the exact same thing. they are saying they are glad to finally see the national guard. the business owners who are hurt the most. this is their economic livelihood. small business owners up and down these streets. they said where were they last night? why didn't they protect us? they are glad to see them tonight and they hope for the best. we have a little bit more on that in just a little bit. greta? >> but i don't get -- i get the sense by looking at it though and we'll hear more from the officer in a second i should tell the viewers. i get a sense that things have sort of returned more to normal. i don't get that panicked feeling. of course i'm looking at it through a monitor. i don't know what it's like there. >> well, you know, there is perhaps not a sense of normalcy.
there is less panic because everyone was in anticipation of that decision to come down from the grand jury which they have been waiting for for three months. there is a sense of concern. people don't know what's going to come. last night we saw people that were hell bent on violence and setting fires. there were peaceful protest hers but there was a different element. that element could be laying low and waiting to come out tonight. if you look across the street, greta, one thing we did not see last night earnings that's been talked about a little bit. is the clergy. we see at least two members of the clergy across the street. that's the community leaders that we wanted or the folks here wanted to see out trying to calm people down. but, again, it's all going to be whether that bad element comes out tonight and only time will tell. greta? >> griff, thank you. we will check back with you a little later. tonight, officer darren wilson speaking to abc news george stephanopoulos. he describes the moments up to when he first pulled that trigger. >> i reached out my window of my right hand to grab his forearm i was going to try to move him back.
i felt the immense power that he h the way i have described it. it was like a 5-year-old holding on to hulk hogan. he was very large. very powerful man. >> you are a pretty big guy. >> yeah. i'm above average. >> you try to grab him but you feel that force? >> yes. and then as i'm holding him i see him coming back around with his left hand. it's in the shape like this and it comes through the window and just a solid punch to the right side of my face. >> you are still sitting thering out. >> the next thing is how do i survive. >> how do i survive? >> i didn't know if i would be able to withstand another hit like that. >> where is your gun. >> on my right hip. i come up and point it at him. get back or i'm going to shoot you. his response immediately he grabbed the top of my gun. when he grabbed it he said you are too much of a [bleep] to-to-shoot me. while is he is doing that can i feel his hand trying to come over my hand and get inside the trigger guard and try to shoot me with my own gun. and that's when i pulled the trigger for the first time. if there.
>> officer wilson also says michael brown never put his hands up as some witnesses described. and you will hear more of officer wilson's interview a little later in our hour. we are getting more information about the evidence presented to the grand jury it includes hours of testimony, including officer darren wilson himself. also today it prosecutors releasing photos, showing bruises on officer wilson's face, down the back of his head. those photos though are generating much controversy. some of the injuries are insignificant. and there is more. according to the grand jury transcripts, officer wilson told the grand jury that he felt he needed to pull the trigger because he feared for his levee. he testified, quote: i felt that under another one of those punches in my face could knock me out or worse, i mean it was -- he is obviously bigger than i was and stronger. i had already taken to two to the face. i didn't think i would. the third one could be fatal if he hit me right. and joining us, our legal panel. defense lawyer ted williams live in ferguson and former prosecutor katie fang in miami. when you listen to those sound bites with george stephanopoulos to the officer.
any thoughts? >> well, i think that it's consistent with what the testimony was that he provided to the grand jury. he testified that he was in reasonable fear for his safety and for his life when he was attacked by michael brown. now, if you think about it, he has now had the opportunity to speak to the grand jury and now he is speaking america, trying to tell his side of the story. what's interesting is he does admit that he attempted to get rounds off. that he pulled the trigger, and that sometime some of the rounds did not come off. in the end he ended up striking michael brown. what's absolutely fantastic in terms of corroborating his story is the fact that there are independent eyewitnesses that states that michael brown charged at officer wilson when they were outside of the police car. and so at the end of the day you have consistent corroborating stories between officer wilson and some independent eyewitnesses. >> and, ted, let me go to you. raised important point. i have actually got the grand jury testimony right here. and we don't have the name
of one of the witnesses, but, witness number 10 that's the one that tends to corroborate that says he was an eyewitness, that he was there. he says and then mr. brown continued, started again to charge towards him. now, that's the transcript that's been released by the prosecutor's office. that tends to -- i mean, that tentsdz to -- tends to corroborate. of course the officer is going to say something that's expull pa tore to himself but the corroboration is what we look for. >> judge van susteren allow me the defense attorney to play the role of a defense attorney here. the first question is, was what officer wilson said subjectively reasonable? i submit several things here. before officer wilson even went into that grand jury, i believe he was well programmed because he was lawyered up and he went into that grand jury that's the first thing.
the second thing he talks about the blows at the car. guess what? look at the physical characteristics of officer wilson and it's inconsistent with those blows. the third thing officer wilson says that michael brown was running away from him and that he was 10 feet away when he pulled the trigger. we know that's inconsistent. that he was about 150 feet away i submit to you, judge van us is is strengthen there are inconsistencies. >> let's talk about the distance thing. i thought that the body was found 153 feet from the car which didn't necessarily mean -- we don't know where the officer was. so officer could be two inches from him. i mean, the body is found 153 feet from the car. but i thought the officer did pursue him and so i would expect the officer would be 153 and the decedent's body. >> think about this. he had a semiautomatic
weapon. every tame he fired that weapon, it ejected a shell. so, they would be able to show approximately how far away he was by the ejection of those shells, greta, that's significant and important if i was a defense attorney in the case. >> all right. i mean, i don't think the 153, that's not what i -- you know, i think the 153 from the car one of the other things interesting is the blood spatter. what the decedent was doing at the it point he was getting shot. that might have been somewhat corroborative for the officer. i don't know. >> yeah. absolutely. we know that the officer testified that he had a .40 caliber six hour that held 13 rounds. he said he fired off 12. we know there was actual rounds that struck mr. brown's body. you look at the blood spatter and location of the wound, and we also know that the wounds themselves, the entry of the gunshot, the
exit wounds are they consistent with charging or surrendering with hands up. forensic evidence that corroborates officer wilson's story. >> ted and katie, thank you both. >> but we also. >> go ahead, ted. >> no. no that's all right. >> i will give you a shot. come on. tell me what you were going to say? >> quickly, we also have witnesses who are saying that he had his hands up. there is inconsistent testimony that is inherently unreliable. >> ted and indicatey, thank you both. we will check back with you both a little later. next guest played important role in this forensic pathologist dr. michael baden he performed autopsy at the family's request and testified in front of the grand jury. dr. bae den joins us. good evening, sir. >> good evening, greta. >> in looking at the decedent's body and the autopsy you conducted and the fact that you didn't look at the first one.
were the wounds consistent with what this officer said in the grand jury or inconsistent with? >> well, the medical examiner who did the autopsy testified, i'm beginning to read over some of the testimonies now, and in his testimony he said that the gun was 6 to 9 inches away from the hand when he was shot in the hand. >> all right. that's inside the car. >> couldn't have been on the car. >> in the car. >> now they are both out of the car, the desee dent is blocking away and the police officer is in some pursuit. >> right. now all the other gunshot wounds are a distance away beyond three feet that we can't tell the difference between 2 and 3 feet and 30 feet from an autopsy. we can tell if somebody is coming towards you or away from you. that's where the credibility of the witnesses are. and as your guests have
said, there are witnesses that give credibility to either side and the problem with the grand jury is there isn't an attorney there to cross-examine witnesses. so that each witness' tell the story, and nobody, you know, cross cross-examines the officer when he testified. >> but there are some wounds that are obvious. for instance, if he were shot in the bed which he was not. that would be a strong indication one direction or not. he was not shot in the back. >> that's right. >> also the path of the bullet can sometimes be indicative. for instance if it's upward path, the shooter may have been on the ground or something. is there anything about the path to the directions of the bullets themselves that indicate to corroborate or to do just the opposite take away from the officer's explanation? >> yeah. there are four wounds in the right upper exextremity one in the palm and three in the forearm and upper arm. one in the forearm is from
behind. the two in the arm are consistent with coming from the front. we can't tell exactly where they occur. they didn't bleed very much. the wound that was bleeding the most was blood drop was the hand. three of the bullet wounds, the last three of the bullet wounds occurred in a cluster hitting him in the top of the head, the face, and the chest all consistent with his -- indicative of his head being face down parallel to the ground at the time the top of his head was struck and the face the upper chest. they -- and according to some witnesses, there were two bursts. there were first gunshot wounds and then a burst of three or four at the end. and that's when he falls to the ground. face first, unconscious and gets bruising over the right side of his face. >> okay. those last three of those cluster.
the top of the head, the fates, and the chest. that would seem to me to have one of two explanations. one that helps the officer and one that doesn't. one is that the decedent was already falling as a consequence of being injured. the other is that he is downward lunging toward the police officer, which is i guess one eyewitness, witness number 10 said charging. can you look at those wounds, was it someone falling who was getting shot those three times or someone charging? is there any way to know. >> no. that as you say it could be either one. falling or giving up and pending his head down or falling or charging. we can't tell from the autopsy. that depends on the credibility of the witnesses and who the grand jurors fell feel are more reliable. >> what's so interesting about the grand jury is the stoornd so light not yard
like in a petit jury. the grand jurors couldn't even meet the lighter version evaning will at all the evidence. >> we don't know in the grand jury they theeted to indict. there could have been 8 to 4 for indictment or 6 to'6" or 12 for not indictment. the fact that there was no doesn't mean that the majority of the jurors didn't believe the witnesses -- didn't believe the officer. >> dr. bae den, thank -- baden, thank you, sir. >> thank you, greta. >> protesters taking to the streets. many outraged by the grand jury's decision. the evidence that may have helped the panel make its decision. as live breaking news coverage continues. you will hear more from darryl wilson's first
breaking news right now. protests across the country in the wake of the ferguson grand jury. there are conflicting accounts where mike brown was and what he was doing at the point darren wilson fired the fatal shot. dr. vincent demaio joins us, good evening, sir. >> good evening, greta. >> what draws your attention, sir, mostly to this autopsy. anything stick out in your mind?
>> >> there are three things. one, mr. brown had his hand around the gun at the time of discharge. this talk about 6 inches is nonsense. the range probably was from either an angled contact with the muzzle to at most a half inch. beyond the half inch, the powder grains coming out the muzzle of gun separate and embedded in the palm of the hand. this was not described. the palm of the hand was seen by three different teams of medical examiners. so, we're fairly sure that the range was contact to quarter of an inch. second thing is the officer said that mr. brown was facing him and punched him with his left hand. because he was facing him and punched him with the left hand, the blow would have gone to the right cheek and photographs of the right side of the face show the face swollen and red at the hospital.
the third thing is mr. brown was advancing on the officer at the time the officer fired the fatal shot. at the time of the fatal shot, he fell to the ground. but there was a trail of blood going away from him so we know he advanced past the point where he was fatally shot leaving a trail of blood. then turned around and went back towards the officer at which time he received the fatal shot and went to the ground. so he had to be advancing. as to the holding the hands and the -- i'm sorry, go ahead. >> i was going to say, i actually find that third point to be the most significant. i see this in two incidents. you have the first instance in the car which seems like a self-defense. it's a struggle over a gun. that seems pretty solid self-defense. it's the second incident, which is when the officer gets out and michael brown,
the decedent is moving away. the question is this excessive force or is he in fear of his life? your description of the blood, it shows that michael brown was returning towards him. and so that would be morph of an aggressor. that would be an aggressor's move of michael brown the decedent at that point. it's not the police officer at that point in pursuit. is there any indication though at the point that michael brown comes back with that blood trail showing that he is returning back towards the officer, how far the officer was from michael brown when he shot the gun? any tests or any indication? any suggestion? >> not from the information i have you could try to see where the cartridge cases were deposited. the problem is it's a pavement. they could hit and they can bounce all over the place if they are in a nice little cluster it's significant. if it's scattered all over then they just bounced and went who knows where.
>> even if you shoot in the same place and stand still they will bounce when they hit the pavement and go all different directions? >> that's right. when it's on the dirt or the grass. then they are not going to go very far. on the pavement, you know, you drop a coin it just goes spiraling away across the blacktop. >> all right. well, at least we got a little more information about that blood trail showing that he returned back in the direction of the police officer. but what we still can't sort of get a lock on is how far the officer was. we will keep digging at the facts and looking at all the witness testimony. thank you, sir. up next, we will take you back live to ferguson, rioters burning down and burning so many businesses. talk to business owners next. next. hear more from ♪ next. hear more from just look at those two. happy. in love. and saving so much money on their car insurance by switching to geico... well, just look at this setting. do you have the ring?
breaking news right now. protests from coast to coast. people demonstrating in new york city and los angeles right now. now the people in those cities out protesting the grand jury's decision not to indict officer darren wilson yesterday. in ferguson, tonight. very few people on the streets unlike last night when the entire city was under siege. rioters burning down and looting so many places of business. griff jenkins joins us live. >> greta, that's right. it's quieter here on main street. you see stores boarded up like beauty world behind me
"on the record" was here last night windows were broken. looters ban to go in there and take things out. turned into incredible scene and our cameras caught it take a look. >> where is the honor in this? this is the chaos that swept ferguson, missouri. >> you can't do, this stop. >> looters smashing windows. anarchy in the city leaving businesses like this one here completely destroyed. >> >> and toted after math on full display in broad daylight. >> i went and watched the news last night. i see our store. >> yom kim is the owner of beauty world. her story is the one where we caught the looters on camera. >> you see the whole stoffer, you know, it's gone. just a sad to me especially before holiday season. >> a tragedy that leaves kim with very few options. >> what do you estimate your
damages. >> i have no clue at this moment. so we try working with the insurance company clean up all this mess sooner. and like i said, i don't know what is is the estimate going to cost. >> what are you going to do right now? >> what's. >> no answer. no answer. >> but for ferguson small business owners like yon kim the chaos might not be over. >> we just have to wait. >> we have to wait and see if that element returns. we just while that package is playing, an armored humvee passed. that of course gives the owner some security. behind these doors it's still a mess. for these small business owners and you see signs like this popping up, greta. i love ferguson. it was started by the small business community here in just a little store down the road. because they love this community, and they hope what we saw last night does not come back tonight or any
other night. greta? >> griff, thanks. it doesn't look like everybody loves ferguson if they are going to burn their own community down. thank you, griff. tonight for the first time we are hearing directfully officer darren wilson he spoke to abc news george stephanopoulos. >> once he is coming in that direction, if he hasn't stopped yet, when is he going to stop? after he is coming at me and i decide to shoot, i fired a series of shots and paused. >> what did you see? >> i noticed at least one of them hit him. i don't know where. i saw his body flinch a little after that i yelled stop get on the ground giving him the opportunity to stop. and he ignored all the commands and he just kept running. and so after kept running again, i shot another series of shots. and at least one of those hit him because i saw the flinch. this time he is about 15 feet away. i start back pedaling because is he getting too close and he is still not stopping. he gets 8 to 10 feet. he's does that he leans
forward like is he going to tackle me. i look down the barrel of my gun. i saw his head and that's where it went. >> right in the top of his head. >> yes. >> you never even shot your gun before and now a man is dead. >> um-huh. >> officer wilson will not face state charges in the fatal shooting of michael brown but that may not be the end of his trouble. now eric holder and department of justice are quungting a federal investigation. so what -- conducting federal investigation. legal panel is back. ted williams in ferguson and former prosecutor katy fang in miami. he had attorney general eric holder come over to the white house and discuss ferguson, federal investigation. so what is your thought on this? >> >> greta, there is a federal investigation. let me give you a ted williams news alert. it's going nowhere as it per sanes to officer wilson
here. you would have to show, it's a heavy burden that officer wilson shot michael brown because he was a black man or because of his race there is absolutely nothing, nothing that i have seen anywhere in any of the evidence that would dictated such a charge. >> i don't know if he has -- you can deprive someone of their civil rights. it doesn't have to be an african-american victim. can you deprive other people of their rights, too. katie, your thought? >> i do not agree with ted to the extent that i don't think that officer wilson is necessarily out of the woods yet. you have seen the attention that eric holder and president obama is placing on this federal investigation. you have got the fbi, the u.s. attorney's office and the civil rights division of the department of justice investigating. the assistant county prosecutors have stated in the grand jury testimony that we have read that they are sharing every bit of evidence with the federal
government. so whether they're necessarily in the clear yet, i don't think so. and remember the doj is also looking at the police department in ferguson as well as in st. louis county to see if there is a pattern or practice of violating civil rights of any persons, regardless of race in the area. >> but katy. >> ted, the has president has used strong words condemning the violence. the attorney general of the united states said he was disappointed by the violence. i thought to myself disappointed that's what patients are when their kids with late getting home. he seems to be a lot different state of mind on this than the president of the united states. if i were the defense lawyer for the officer, i uld be concerned more charges were coming, federal charges. >> hey. wait a minute, i'm not saying that the federal government would not charge. i don't think they would be able to sustain the charge. hey, look, anybody can be
charged. but the problem is would you be able to go to some fair minded jurors, 12 people and be able to make a civil rights charge out of this? and get a conviction? i think it's highly unlikely and i think it would be wholly unfair with the threshold that needs to be met for a civil rights violation. >> and in support of your position, ted, i mean, which supports your position the grand jury can't even indict because they don't find enough evidence is that when you get to the courtroom, it's a much bigger standard, if they can't even indict in the state that would tend to support what you say. but, we have got to go. up next, both of you, thank you. former congressman allen west, you have to hear what he has to say about ferguson and the obama administration and you will. that's next. plus, oh brother, get ready, heavy rain and snow threatening to make holiday travel a nightmare for millions of americans. how bad will the great get away get?
overturned. for the most part people are remaining calm even here in new york city. there are numerous arrests as people blocked traffic to the lincoln tunnel as well as the midtown tunnels and protested in time square and causing disruption in traffic and a lot of people are having a hard time getting into the city. they made arrests and again ferguson, the scene of another night of unrust -- unrest, but no where near the violence we saw last fight and the president basically stating what we saw last night is indefensible and should never have happened. we have been giving a live update from ferguson, missouri. in the meantime we join greta on the record already in progress. >> by last night and we have people talking about this as something disappointing. it is the top lawyer in the country saying that.
>> i actually give holder some credit. what he did the first go around, they calmed down after holder made his visit there. you would like to see the attorney general go further than that, but the president's words -- >> yes. >> eric holder has a specific job to do and i give him credit. >> he should be thinking about prosecuting those who burned downplayses. those are crimes. those are crimes and that's his job. >> local officials will do that i assume. >> thank you, panel. thank you all. >> and coming up next, get ready. it is coming a huge winter story and it is on the busiest travel day of the year. that's next.
worse. this is the storm we are talking about. a developing low pressure off the coast of the southeast and up toward the mid-atlantic starting tomorrow morning and into the midday and into the overnight. it is going to be a mess all up and down the i-95 corridor. along the coast rain transitioning to a mix of snow. anterior sections could get a foot of sections. if you are traveling on i-95 tomorrow it is going to be a mess. know what you are dealing with. a lot of folks will be on the are going to be prevalent as well as a lot of cancellations. that will cause uh ripple effect across the rest of the country. keep aware of that. look at the snow flying. dc, slushy inches. new york could get six to eight. boston up to 10 inches and new england, the jackpot we think interior sections getting over a foot of snow. this is all happening tomorrow, greta. thursday it is out of the way. but tomorrow is the busiest travel day of the year.
we will be on it. we'll bring you the latest. >> janice, thank you very much. thanks for being with us. see you tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. if you can't watch live, use your dvr. "the owe reilly factor" is on tonight. >> a shocking display. michael brown's step-father screaming for violence after the decision last night. tonight we will analyze all that has happened thus far. >> this is a foregone conclusion. this was a rigged game. is it legal? we will take a look at the facts. >> i know of people in my own party and in my own government structure who disregard things we say and how we feel and we are not going to allow it anymore.